Edge sat down with one of Atlanta’s pastor to get his insight on the church’s relevance and his opinion on the start of some “Inclusive Churches” in the city. Dr. Kenneth Samuel is the pastor of Victory church in Stone Mountain, GA. He has a membership of approximately 3000. In 1996, he received the Doctor of Ministry Degree from the United Theological Seminary in Dayton, Ohio.
Edge: Let’s start with you telling our readers your church demographics.
Dr. Kenneth Samuel: Victory has approximately three thousand members, we draw really from all across the metro Atlanta area and of course we have members in this immediate area. We have a relatively young congregation the median age is about 37-38, many young families, and a lot of small children, lots of first time home buyers or in the process of trying to qualify to buy a home.
Edge: Is Victory congregation primarily African American?
Dr. Kenneth Samuel: Yes, I’m sure about 97 % African American we have a sprinkling that are Hispanic and a few white members.
Edge: Now with the Hispanic population growing in this area of Stone Mountain. Are you seeing more Hispanics growth within your church?
Dr. Kenneth Samuel: We have not seen a significant growth but there are some Hispanic members that attend. I’ve been interested in actually trying to start a Hispanic congregation right here on campus that could be conducted in Spanish for Spanish speaking persons, so were in the process of trying to explore that.
Edge: Now in general how well has the black church done in trying to include the Hispanic population?
Dr. Kenneth Samuel: Well I think the language is the main barrier, once you get beyond that I don’t think there is much of a barrier or divide. Worship is public but also personal. So it’s good if your native language is Spanish and or you speak Spanish at home that you come to a worship service or read the bible in Spanish. So for us I think that is the main barrier because I don’t speak Spanish, so every Hispanic person that come would have to be bi-lingual and probably most are but in worship, it would be good if it can be in your native tongue. So that’s probably why we don’t attract more. When we had our school open, Victory Christian Academy we had a Hispanic on staff she was bilingual, spoke English and Spanish fluently, her presence alone attracted Hispanic students to the school. We don’t have a Spanish speaking person on the church staff so we haven’t had the same kind of attraction.
Edge: Does the church need to change ministry because of the economy? How should the church deal with the issues in the economy?
Dr. Kenneth Samuel: Well I think number one, this whole prosperity gospel is just so detrimental. There was a whole movement and it’s probably still alive where people began to judge their blessings from God based on their material possessions. Life consists of much more than the amount of things we possess. I think there is a scripture that says, life does not exist in the abundance of things. So I think that whole prosperity gospel needed to be revamped and rethought. I never been a proponent of it but I know many persons have. We have to teach people that it’s not in the abundance of things that you have but being grateful for what you have. It’s making great use of what you have. It’s not just saying Lord bless me, its Lord bless me so I can be a blessing to somebody else. So I ask God to increase Victory. That’s a good prayer. I mean that’s the prayer of Jabez, Lord Grant me increase, but only so we can do more to serve others. Never to make the church or the church members or myself a conduit with reserve of selfishness and arrogance and egotism, to say look what we have, look what God has given us. I think God wants to channel blessings through us, that’s why God gives blessings to us, so we can pass the blessings along. My prayer is that Victory in this crisis time will be supported by the people who can and will. That way we can reach out and support persons who have less. We are getting many more and more calls of persons who just can’t pay rent, or mortgage and of course were limited in what we can do because we have to pay a mortgage but I found out that when people call, you can pray with them but you have to offer them some kind of material: a food box, some Marta tokens, a lot of people don’t have transportation, some money to buy a coat for a child etc. The needs are up and the resources are down. It’s unfortunate that as the need for those types of services has increased the resources have decreased because it’s hard for everybody. We have to pull from our resources. We have a clothing bank here and a food bank so I tell people even if we are not in the position to give you a couple hundred dollars, we can say at least you won’t go hungry. Or at least you won’t be outside with no clothes or coat. Were going make sure of that because we have those things. Beyond that unfortunately by the time someone calls us for rent or mortgage assistance they are like 3 or 4 months behind and then all of a sudden they owe about 3500, we are just not in a position to do that. We do the best we can and at least they have food and clothing and try to find somewhere if they are outside or put them up in a hotel for a few days while they try to figure something out.
Edge: Do you think the Black church has lost some if its relevance and influence in society?
Dr. Kenneth Samuel: Well I think that that 30, 40 to fifty years ago the church was so much the center of community in the black community, I mean let’s face it we didn’t have that many other options. You know you went to church and school and if you were grown enough you might go to the juke-joint on the weekends but the church was the center. Now I just think there is such a diversity of things that claim people’s attention. There are fraternities, sororities, my gym membership, my spa treatment, my massage, you know when I was growing up it was basically school and church. Well you know now its ballet, cheer-leading squad, football camp, basketball camp, a lot of time parents say the teens don’t have time to come to church like we use to three of four times a week. You get them in Sunday and you pretty much do what you need to do. Then transportation for many people is a key with gasoline prices going up and down so there parents may not be in position to transport them back and forth. So there are a lot of other things that go on that I think impact the fact that people have found other outlets for their social engagement, other than the church that use to be more central. Now that’s not to say the church has less of a role, it just means we have to adapt to the changing times. For us (Victory Church) what that means is instead of planning a lot of stuff during the week, where people either don’t have the time or the funds to get here, we try to make it convenient and plan on Sunday and do as much as we can while people are here or Wed, we got to try to plan stuff around peoples schedules, that’s a big thing. I think in terms of a gathering place where everybody’s welcome and can come no matter what you’re going through, that’s free and you get spiritual guidance and support. There are a lot of places you can go but there are not many places you can go and get spiritual nurturing, prayer, somebody to share hope with you and encourage you. There are not many places like that. I think the church is going to continue to play a vital role, whether or not it’s going to be as central depends but it’s always going be vital. I think there will always be a need for a community of believers, a community of faith. I don’t think any other outlets will ever take the place of this community. A place you can come to be spiritually nurtured and edified. That’s the missing link in our lives, that spiritual connection. You know we get intellectual, social, political and at Victory what we have to do is try to tie them all in and show people the spiritual significance of everything else.
Edge: For those readers who may have grew up in church and are discouraged or feel as though church has become more of the mundane, what would you say to them?
Dr. Kenneth Samuel: I think a lot of boredom with church probably has to do with certain frustrations. It’s kind of like a good song, no matter how many times you hear it; you always seem to get a sense of enjoyment from it. The bible is only 66 books, you could say, well “I read it all so it boring to me,” but the nature of church, the nature of the living word, no matter how many times you read the same text, it means something more to you because you are in a different stage in life. So I guess I would challenge a person who is bored with church. I think that is an indication that a person has reached a kind of rut, a monotony of his or her own life because how many times do you get tired of someone that you love, say I love you? Do you say, “well you said that to me last year?” That’s ridiculous, no matter how many times they say I love you, it means something to you and you want to hear it over and over again. And I think too, people say church is boring because they come to be a spectator, you are coming to say entertain me, excite and please me. That’s the wrong attitude, you come to church just to see how the preacher is going make me feel, or how the choir is going move me today. You come to church to say, what way can I express my gratitude to God and what can I give back in terms of my service and sacrifice to express to God how much I love him. How can you get bored expressing your love and gratitude to God? God never gets bored expressing his love and gratitude towards us.
Edge: We know there is no perfect church but Jesus said he is coming back for his perfect church, is it the church responsibility to strive to be perfect or is it okay to rest in philosophy that there is no perfect church?
Dr. Kenneth Samuel: I think perfection is always the goal, but perfection not in terms of being sinless because none of us are sinless but perfect in terms of being forgiven and walking in the grace, forgiveness and mercy of God. I think it’s a better word for it, its called sanctification which means we are being constantly molded into the image of Christ and that’s a lifelong process. So anybody who thinks they have already arrived, I say they do better than Apostle Paul because he said, “I press toward the mark,” he said “I die daily,” so every day is a faith walk, every day there is a moving forth in the spirit and being taught and understand more in your walk with God. It’s a constant journey and everybody is at different places on the journey. We don’t all have to be at the same place on the journey; we just need to be on the journey. So I think the church is a place to help people work out their soul salvation. I often say that the church is not haven for the sanctified and perfect, it’s a hospital and we are trying get people healed.
Edge: How should the church respond to members who fall from grace? Do you think people should be disqualified for ministry based on sin, specifically with how Ted Haggard’s church responded to his falling? How should the church deal with sin?
Dr. Kenneth Samuel: The Christ like way would be to forgive and in some cases and sometimes forgiveness has to be accompanied with a process that can restore, that can be counseling, therapy, prayer, or support group. I tell the officers who handle money that if you steal from the church we will forgive you, but we will also prosecute you because I think you need the a little jail time to think about what you done. Now, that don’t mean I won’t forgive you but we will prosecute and if you are caught stealing; you will not be given the responsibility in that capacity again because obviously that is something you cannot handle. Some would say, “well do that mean forever?” Well I can’t say forever but in the immediate foreseeable future you won’t have the opportunity to do that because you violated the trust. We need to continue to love people and I think the church needs to be a place where we never try to embarrass, humiliate, or demean. Love does not rejoice in evil. Love rejoices in the truth. Love hopes all things, and believes all things according to 1st Corinthians 13 and we would forgive, pray, hope for the best and depending on the violation, I would recommend either some counseling or some period of reflection. It’s not to say just because you forgive someone they have to be immediately restored to a position.
Edge: There have been a few churches in Atlanta that have started and are “radically inclusive.” Specifically for churches that have started that embraces and support homosexuality, how should churches that don’t believe or agree with these churches respond to these churches.
Dr. Kenneth Samuel: I believe that we have to understand there are different gifts and different interpretations of scripture and one church may come away or one pastor may come away from a text understanding different from another person. I think that is okay, I think there is room for diversity in the body of believers. What should unite us is our common faith in the saving grace of Jesus of Christ. Jesus said whosoever will, may come. He didn’t qualify it to say, if you’re straight or gay or if you’re male or female, black or white, he said whosoever will, come. I don’t think that anybody in the church is in any position to judge another person’s salvation or experience with God. We may not understand everything, but we don’t have to understand everything. We need to be working on our own soul salvation and praying for others as they go. I use to think that yeah, you can be gay in church but you have to keep that hidden in closet and God will forgive you. Then I had a gay person to say, “well who are you are you to judge my salvation.” And it’s true, I can’t judge anybody’s salvation, that’s not for me to do. I’m to preach God’s love with whatever walk you are in, you should obey God and do the best you can and allow the spirit of God to work in you to transform you. I’m in no position to say a person who is gay is not saved just because there gay. As a matter of fact, I think there’s a lot of hypocrisy because what I hear a lot of my colleagues in the ministry say is, a person may feel or believe they are gay but they need to keep that in the closet, keep that on the down-low because what the church requires is that they just get married and have children. Well, I’m like that’s ridiculous because now you have a whole lot of lives messed up. We teach people to live lies of hypocrisy, people get married and they don’t really want to get married, they have the wife and boyfriend on the side or husband and girlfriend on the side and it’s a mess in the name of God. That is so detrimental, so un-Christ like. I think it’s better for people to be honest, to be who they are. That’s not to say that a gay person cannot sin but a heterosexual can sin to. We need to all just try to be true to God, be true to the person you love and I am so grateful that God is the ultimate judge and I believe God’s love is greater than any laws that people will lift up from the bible. Well the bible also said eating spare ribs was an abomination, but people haven’t stopped eating them.
Edge: Earlier you talked about how people have more outlets than church for their social, political and intellectual needs compared to back in the day. How can the church make their ministry relevant while staying biblical?
Dr. Kenneth Samuel: I think our mandate is to serve God by serving others. I think that any church would need to look at its current congregation and look at its community and see where the needs are. They jump out at you. I don’t even have to think deeply, we have such a need in this community for youth services, to give young people who parents work downtown or somewhere far out, somewhere to go. And we don’t have the resources now but I am working on it. I want to provide an after school program, where young people can come get homework assistance, reading, math and science tutorial and computer lab. The parents will know they are in a safe place; they are being supervised and given something to eat until their parents get home. I believe that is such a need certainly on weekdays but also on weekends. I see the young people walking down the streets and sometimes just hanging out here on campus with nowhere to go. So the need for youth services is really great, also senior care. We have a lot of seniors that are home during the day, I wish we had the resources in place to really have, I know we have over at the Lou Walker center but something in this area where seniors can come and learn basic computer skills and go on some mini field trips and can get out and enjoy themselves. Those are just two immediate needs and I’m sure there are many others. I think with any church, that’s how you stay relevant because people say, this church is meeting a need in my life, now my mother has somewhere to go, she don’t have to be home all day. Now I know that when my son gets home from school he’s not just running around until 8 o’clock. That’s how a church stays relevant.
Edge: So I am hearing you say, that church can stay relevant by meeting the needs of its immediate community?
Dr. Kenneth Samuel: That’s right. And you don’t have to look far, the people will tell you what they need in the community, you just have to talk to them.
Edge: It kind of seems like when churches have some level of success or get a big building or reach mega status, their immediate community doesn’t feel comfortable or even sometimes welcome to go into the church. Or that church is not really doing anything for the immediate community.
Dr. Kenneth Samuel: Well it’s really a catch 22 because a church can become so mega that it has such an overhead in terms of just maintaining the institution that it doesn’t have that many resources to serve people. I think Victory got in that position, I’m working now to reverse that so we can spend less in just maintaining the physical plant and put more into serving because that’s what God called us to do. Christ said serve, of course we need a place and resources to do that but I think when you get top heavy and so much of everything is going to be “mega,” and you have a mega church but mini-mission that becomes very dangerous and a lot of churches find themselves in that position and I think we have to start reversing that and let’s say, “let’s turn this around”. Let’s have a mega-mission and make sure the emphasis is on how we reach out to people. And by the way, just not reaching out to other Christians and people who look like us.
Edge: So basically ministry is not just going out and saying you need to be saved, but actually meeting the needs of the people?
Dr. Kenneth Samuel: Yes, meeting the needs of the people. That’s what Jesus did, I challenge anyone to tell me where in the bible did Jesus go up to somebody and say you, young lady, young man you need to be saved. Every time he met people he met them at their point of need. The woman at the well, you need water? Let’s talk about water. Blind Barnabas your blind, let’s talk about sight. Everywhere he met people, his own disciples, okay you’re fishing, let’s talk about being fishers of men and women. He met them at their point of need and when you meet people at their point of need then they know you not trying game them or trying to trick them. You engage them and then have an opportunity to share about what’s motivating you to do what you do. Then you can say to them, not only do you need sight, (physical) need but you need spiritual sight. Not only do you need water but you need living water but were going start with your immediate needs.
This is a video where ABC’s Nightline Correspondent Dan Harris moderates a debate about the reality of Satan. The Participants in this debate were Annie Lobert, Pastor Mark Driscoll, Deepak Chopra and Carlton Pearson. Do you believe the Devil (Satan) really exist? Bishop Carlton Pearson who after years of preaching the message of Christ questions the belief that Satan exist and believes that God “would not condemn people to hell just because they are not Christian.” 
Now let me start by first saying I don’t condone or make excuses for any man hitting a woman but isn’t there a double standard when addressing domestic violence? I was listening to a radio station as they were talking about Chris Brown and Rihanna and the host (a man) said “I don’t care if a woman hit me, I would never hit a woman.” Who do you know will just sit and let someone hit them? Now I’m not saying you can’t choose to walk away or as God said “turn the other cheek.” But really if a woman hit you upside the head with a bottle, if you didn’t pass out, your initial response will be to hit back! Why does the media and society demonize a man who hit a woman but when a woman hit a man it’s never discussed or it somehow is blamed on the man? Now if I being a woman get in an argument with my man and I slap him upside the head, (which I wouldn’t do, lol), don’t I want a fight? Wouldn’t it be a natural inclination to hit back? No one will ever know the real circumstances in the some of the fairly recent celebrity domestic abuse cases with Rihanna/Chris Brown, BeBe Winans/Debra Winans or even Juanita Bynum/Bishop Weeks. It is equally as wrong for a woman to hit a man and I’m exhausted with the double standard. I grew up in a house where abuse took place. My parents fought and I know my mom has on many occasion (and she is a strong thing) hit my dad and I never saw him strike her. But now that I’m grown I found out there was one time where my dad got fed up and knocked my mom one good time, I’m thinking it was much deserved. That experience made her think twice about putting her hands on him again! No, physical violence shouldn’t be tolerated from a women or a man. We shouldn’t be quick to judge a situation of domestic violence especially when we don’t have all the facts; because more than we are willing to admit, women can be just as abusive as men and I’m referring to verbal abuse too. Women should learn to be women and respect men. How do you expect to be treated like a queen when you are acting like wild women? It is not okay to strike a man even if society affirms that lie. We need balance and to hold both women and men accountable in these situations equally. You’re not a victim if you are the perpetrator or initiate the abuse. Let’s keep it real.
